There must be a pony in here somewhere.

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Dangerman
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Dangerman » 20 Aug 2019, 19:03

Yeah but the way one person outsources it is to reach for their own checkbook, and the other person wants to outsource via Free Canada Healthcare.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 20 Aug 2019, 19:08

National healthcare in basically every country around the world is through broad based taxes, which is checkbook. The 40% tax bracket here starts at £46k and the only higher one is 45% at £150k. It would be like paying for national healthcare through payroll taxes rather than income taxes.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by JasonL » 20 Aug 2019, 19:31

Mo wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 17:39
JasonL wrote:
JD wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 15:24
Most people want to never have to make any hard decisions or take any real responsibility. In my darker moments I think that most people are basically animals who want to live in a pen and be fed and cared for by a Great Leader.
I would modify to ... struggling to hold onto the barnyard exactly here - what they want is Wise Men and Great Leaders to give them a checklist that is SUPER EASY and consisting of exactly what they want to be doing for the most part, they want a social compact and a set of punitive measures in place that A) allows them to look down at people who don't fill out the check boxes; B) promises them 100% life fulfillment and eternal happiness if get their check marks in all the boxes; and C) allows a mechanism to get restitution if that promise is violated OR if someone else seems to be have better outcomes for doing more than the checklist. The checklist is the thing. Civilization is checking easy boxes and receiving absurd promises in return.
I think is an unfair comment from the “my toolbox is a checkbook,” because I believe it’s the exact same instinct. These are the things I’m good at and I want to deal with, I’d rather outsource the other stuff to someone else, whether it’s growing/raising food, fixing appliances, or dealing with unpleasant real world shit.
Yeah, I struggle with this comparison as you might expect. This sounds like i'm not good at anything that costs me anything other than my favorite thing right now, you all save me from your own pockets - don't send me a bill. My strategy is do the thing that pays well enough to be able to pay as many of those bills as you like over the course of a lifetime. Not all will have the same options, but it is not the same as punting and seeking transfers at gunpoint to make up the difference.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Warren » 20 Aug 2019, 19:36

JasonL wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 19:31
Mo wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 17:39
JasonL wrote:
JD wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 15:24
Most people want to never have to make any hard decisions or take any real responsibility. In my darker moments I think that most people are basically animals who want to live in a pen and be fed and cared for by a Great Leader.
I would modify to ... struggling to hold onto the barnyard exactly here - what they want is Wise Men and Great Leaders to give them a checklist that is SUPER EASY and consisting of exactly what they want to be doing for the most part, they want a social compact and a set of punitive measures in place that A) allows them to look down at people who don't fill out the check boxes; B) promises them 100% life fulfillment and eternal happiness if get their check marks in all the boxes; and C) allows a mechanism to get restitution if that promise is violated OR if someone else seems to be have better outcomes for doing more than the checklist. The checklist is the thing. Civilization is checking easy boxes and receiving absurd promises in return.
I think is an unfair comment from the “my toolbox is a checkbook,” because I believe it’s the exact same instinct. These are the things I’m good at and I want to deal with, I’d rather outsource the other stuff to someone else, whether it’s growing/raising food, fixing appliances, or dealing with unpleasant real world shit.
Yeah, I struggle with this comparison as you might expect. This sounds like i'm not good at anything that costs me anything other than my favorite thing right now, you all save me from your own pockets - don't send me a bill. My strategy is do the thing that pays well enough to be able to pay as many of those bills as you like over the course of a lifetime. Not all will have the same options, but it is not the same as punting and seeking transfers at gunpoint to make up the difference.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Dangerman » 20 Aug 2019, 20:02

Mo wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 19:08
National healthcare in basically every country around the world is through broad based taxes, which is checkbook. The 40% tax bracket here starts at £46k and the only higher one is 45% at £150k. It would be like paying for national healthcare through payroll taxes rather than income taxes.
No, it's not checkbook, checkbook is where you decide to pay for a thing on your own because you can't just do/make it yourself, go procure it, and then you have the thing because you made positive actions. Just qualifying to have someone do it for you is not checkbook, it's the opposite even if you pay for it in a taxes are fungible kind of way.

Actually, I feel like I left the track of our discussion, and while I don't really agree, my argument here doesn't make the point I was trying to make.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Warren » 20 Aug 2019, 20:50

Dangerman wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 20:02
Actually, I feel like I left the track of our discussion, and while I don't really agree, my argument here doesn't make the point I was trying to make.
Since when did this become a rule of Grylliade?
Was this vetted by the rules committee? I didn't get a memo.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by JasonL » 20 Aug 2019, 20:58

It’s odd how fast I can lose a libertarian ish room with “taking money from other people yea even through institutional means is bad”. I get that I’m expressing the most cynical version of that here, as I stipulated upthread, but still.

Healthcare is the bailey of the kind of defenses you often hear for institutional compulsion, but part of my point is even that isn’t super compelling as a moral case when we look around and the presumption is nobody saves a single penny for it because of the institution we built. Starts as safety net, becomes How The Whole Thing Works Forever. Increases in scope precisely because the scope creep fulfills the check box model of accountability deflection. And it happened mostly during the lives of the boomers.

Yes I’m in a funk.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Warren » 20 Aug 2019, 21:02

JasonL wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 20:58
Yes I’m in a funk.
This is about the cabling isn't it?
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Dangerman » 20 Aug 2019, 21:40

This is what happens when he doesn't get to fix the cable.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by nicole » 21 Aug 2019, 17:53

JasonL wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 15:39
JD wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 15:24
Most people want to never have to make any hard decisions or take any real responsibility. In my darker moments I think that most people are basically animals who want to live in a pen and be fed and cared for by a Great Leader.
I would modify to ... struggling to hold onto the barnyard exactly here - what they want is Wise Men and Great Leaders to give them a checklist that is SUPER EASY and consisting of exactly what they want to be doing for the most part, they want a social compact and a set of punitive measures in place that A) allows them to look down at people who don't fill out the check boxes; B) promises them 100% life fulfillment and eternal happiness if get their check marks in all the boxes; and C) allows a mechanism to get restitution if that promise is violated OR if someone else seems to be have better outcomes for doing more than the checklist. The checklist is the thing. Civilization is checking easy boxes and receiving absurd promises in return.
Replying now because of your later comment re funk...

I mean, I don’t agree with this because I think it ascribes too much thought/intention/motivation to the set of people you are thinking about. I would say it’s more like people are just going around with unconsidered expectations based on something they half-remember half-hearing from an equally thoughtless parent, friend, or schoolteacher. The expectations are often contradictory but they don’t realize that, and they also don’t realize that their expectations are not actually shared with many of the people they think share them. They’re all half-remembering something they half-heard from someone who only half-understood it, mixed in with the jetsam of individual personalities and experiences; they don’t actually have a strong moral consensus at all.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Dangerman » 21 Aug 2019, 17:53

Depressingly, I really agree with Nicole when it's put like that.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by JasonL » 21 Aug 2019, 18:02

nicole wrote:
21 Aug 2019, 17:53
JasonL wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 15:39
JD wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 15:24
Most people want to never have to make any hard decisions or take any real responsibility. In my darker moments I think that most people are basically animals who want to live in a pen and be fed and cared for by a Great Leader.
I would modify to ... struggling to hold onto the barnyard exactly here - what they want is Wise Men and Great Leaders to give them a checklist that is SUPER EASY and consisting of exactly what they want to be doing for the most part, they want a social compact and a set of punitive measures in place that A) allows them to look down at people who don't fill out the check boxes; B) promises them 100% life fulfillment and eternal happiness if get their check marks in all the boxes; and C) allows a mechanism to get restitution if that promise is violated OR if someone else seems to be have better outcomes for doing more than the checklist. The checklist is the thing. Civilization is checking easy boxes and receiving absurd promises in return.
Replying now because of your later comment re funk...

I mean, I don’t agree with this because I think it ascribes too much thought/intention/motivation to the set of people you are thinking about. I would say it’s more like people are just going around with unconsidered expectations based on something they half-remember half-hearing from an equally thoughtless parent, friend, or schoolteacher. The expectations are often contradictory but they don’t realize that, and they also don’t realize that their expectations are not actually shared with many of the people they think share them. They’re all half-remembering something they half-heard from someone who only half-understood it, mixed in with the jetsam of individual personalities and experiences; they don’t actually have a strong moral consensus at all.
The connection between your view and mine is that the way these expectations wind up being satisfied isn't random. Try to call social security a welfare program in front of some retirees. They are fumbling toward a feeling that balances a set of conditions that reduces their accountability for outcomes with a narrative that makes it ok to do that, typically with at least one group of people to look down on who draw the contrast between the REAL welfare cases and themselves.

That is, I think your story is exactly right in the origins of these feelings and the lack of conscious thought being put into them, but those expectations only run in one direction and they have a common set of features.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by lunchstealer » 21 Aug 2019, 19:56

I think a lot of you are underestimating the RICH PEOPLE BAD motivation. If the government says no, well the government isn't out to make a bunch of money so they're not stealing. There are a lot of people who think that 'profit' is legitimately immoral because it's stealing to make people pay more to get something than what it cost you to make it.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by JasonL » 20 Sep 2019, 15:08

Work related things suggest to me we are nearing the end of “wellness points” programs wherein you get rewarded by reductions in health premiums for doing certain things - logging exercise, connecting your activity tracker to the points system, annual checkups etc.

Punchline we have enough data on these over a period of time to pin down their efficacy or lack thereof.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Andrew » 25 Sep 2019, 07:44

JasonL wrote:
20 Sep 2019, 15:08
Work related things suggest to me we are nearing the end of “wellness points” programs wherein you get rewarded by reductions in health premiums for doing certain things - logging exercise, connecting your activity tracker to the points system, annual checkups etc.

Punchline we have enough data on these over a period of time to pin down their efficacy or lack thereof.
Interesting. I wonder how long that will take to change. I noticed my employer increasing all the goals this year.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Painboy » 25 Sep 2019, 14:49

JasonL wrote:
20 Sep 2019, 15:08
Work related things suggest to me we are nearing the end of “wellness points” programs wherein you get rewarded by reductions in health premiums for doing certain things - logging exercise, connecting your activity tracker to the points system, annual checkups etc.

Punchline we have enough data on these over a period of time to pin down their efficacy or lack thereof.
I'm pretty sure this is something the HMOs found out years ago. Preventive medicine does little for those who prioritize healthy living anyway as they rarely need it. For those where preventive medicine or other healthy activity might help it goes unused because they won't change their behavior and prioritize for it.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by JasonL » 25 Sep 2019, 14:52

There was this view for a while that fitness trackers and the prevalence thereof would matter.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Andrew » 25 Sep 2019, 17:18

JasonL wrote:
25 Sep 2019, 14:52
There was this view for a while that fitness trackers and the prevalence thereof would matter.
That's so optimistic that I don't even know how to respond. Most everyone I know who got a tracker immediately figured out how to game them.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by JasonL » 25 Sep 2019, 17:45

Yeah well. They were trying a lot of things. I think it was an experiment worth taking to see if anything could nudge behavior. Answer, no.

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by thoreau » 25 Sep 2019, 18:09

"Nudges" only seem to work if they take advantage of inertia (e.g. default settings that you have to take action to change). "Nudges" against inertia seem to stop working as soon as they lose their novelty. The first business to send a text message to millennial customers got some oompf from it, no doubt. Now every rewards program that you join sends you text messages.
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 26 Sep 2019, 05:19

The denial of Dojito's claim has really gotten Mrs. Mo on a rampage. I would say she's pretty standard left of center suburban person. Her comment after we discussed was, "I fucking hate insurance companies. They're the worst, even worse than tobacco companies. At least people know the effects of smoking and are making a conscious decision. Here they're trying to get out of paying legit medical costs."
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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by JasonL » 26 Sep 2019, 08:25

Mo wrote:The denial of Dojito's claim has really gotten Mrs. Mo on a rampage. I would say she's pretty standard left of center suburban person. Her comment after we discussed was, "I fucking hate insurance companies. They're the worst, even worse than tobacco companies. At least people know the effects of smoking and are making a conscious decision. Here they're trying to get out of paying legit medical costs."
Denied by NHS?

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 26 Sep 2019, 08:26

Cigna
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by JasonL » 26 Sep 2019, 08:31

Is cigna supplemental or replacement for NHS?

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Re: There must be a pony in here somewhere.

Post by Mo » 26 Sep 2019, 08:34

It's the standard expat global health insurance the company provides. NHS would cover it, but then we'd have to wait a bit longer. Also, one of the hospitals we're looking at is a private hospital, which NHS wouldn't cover.
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