Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Hugh Akston »

I'll just leave this here

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Shem
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Shem »

Pham Nuwen wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 17:10
Shem,

So what then exactly. You saying I vote Biden and you vote Jojo? I gotta live with that you know.
That's right. The LP gets the vote to get closer to 5% nationwide, and the swing state vote goes to the guy who can beat Trump. Win-Win.
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Aresen
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen »

Shem wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 18:50
Pham Nuwen wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 17:10
Shem,

So what then exactly. You saying I vote Biden and you vote Jojo? I gotta live with that you know.
That's right. The LP gets the vote to get closer to 5% nationwide, and the swing state vote goes to the guy who can beat Trump. Win-Win.
Isn't vote swapping illegal? Illicit commerce is very libertarian.
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lunchstealer
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by lunchstealer »

Aresen wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 19:02
Shem wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 18:50
Pham Nuwen wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 17:10
Shem,

So what then exactly. You saying I vote Biden and you vote Jojo? I gotta live with that you know.
That's right. The LP gets the vote to get closer to 5% nationwide, and the swing state vote goes to the guy who can beat Trump. Win-Win.
Isn't vote swapping illegal? Illicit commerce is very libertarian.
Not really, no. Some people argue that it is, because it is illegal to exchange a vote for anything of pecuniary value, but since it's illegal to trade a vote for a thing of pecuniary value, it's hard to argue that a vote has pecuniary value since you can't legally trade it for anything of value.
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Pham Nuwen »

Aresen wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 19:02
Shem wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 18:50
Pham Nuwen wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 17:10
Shem,

So what then exactly. You saying I vote Biden and you vote Jojo? I gotta live with that you know.
That's right. The LP gets the vote to get closer to 5% nationwide, and the swing state vote goes to the guy who can beat Trump. Win-Win.
Isn't vote swapping illegal? Illicit commerce is very libertarian.
That's some outlaw shit there. I like that.
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Pham Nuwen »

Warren wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 17:30
Pham Nuwen wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 17:10
Warren wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 15:59
Shem wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 15:57
Pham Nuwen wrote: 11 Sep 2020, 11:08 Jojo 2020 is where I'm at but people keep pestering me to vote Biden.
If it'll make you feel better, I'll trade you votes.
Fuck that. Third party votes in closely contested states are more precious. You should both vote for Jo Jo in any case.
Pipe down, junior. The adults are talking.

Shem,

So what then exactly. You saying I vote Biden and you vote Jojo? I gotta live with that you know.
I'm the only adult in the room Sonny boy. If you won't respect your elders, you should at least respect your betters.
Older not better. You're a secret MAGA supporter, man. Everyone knows but I dont mind so much. It's the pretending that irks me is all. You want to burn it all down. Which I get if not support.
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Warren
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Warren »

Wrong at every turn
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Jennifer
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer »

Warren, you've spent almost four years now yammering "Hillary would be worse" and "Trump's no worse than any other president in recent times," but IIRC, other than "If Hillary were prez she'd've created some new regulatory agency by now" I can't recall you ever giving specifics as to why. Like, regarding the claim "Trump's no worse than average" -- Zod knows I've made many criticisms of Obama and Bush over the years, as have we all, and in the days before we-all met each other online I criticized Clinton too [Hillary and Bill both], but I can't recall any of them, like, withholding emergency funding from disaster-struck states because they had a personal beef with the governor, ignoring disaster-struck states which did not vote for him in the last election, encouraging Americans to harass private citizens because said citizens deigned to criticize the sitting president of the US, encourage his followers to commit actual violence against people who don't support him, suggest starting a federal registry of Americans who follow a certain major world religion, and so forth -- so what specifically makes you think Trump is merely more of the same?
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Warren
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Warren »

Everybody has lost their mind over what the man says and tweets. Way the fuck back in the 2016 primaries I figured out to ignore what he says and tweets because it's beyond stupid. I don't care how stupid he is, I don't care how "embarrassing" he is. I care about how we as a people are governed. And on that metric, in many ways things are better under this administration than previous ones.
Trump is not leaving behind Obama Care, TSA, Department of Homeland Security, or Another Endless War like Afghanistan.

His petty handling of disasters is nothing compared to the Katrina Debacle.
Obama was just as divisive.
etc.

All this WE HAVE TO GET RID OF THIS MONSTER is just delusional. And I'm not MAGA just because I don't add my voice to the din whenever I don't approve of what he's actually doing.

The worst thing I have to say about the Trump administration is probably Money Printer Go Brrrrr. But even that is a continuation of increasingly horrifying fiscal policy going back several administrations. But yeah, he's got his foot on the gas and he's determined to be more irresponsible than the past ten guys put together. So, TRUMP BAD! VERY VERY BAD! BAD TRUMP! Is that better?

But even there. The president shouldn't be able to do that. The power of the purse belongs to Congress and who exactly in either party is even talking about spending less? Not no one, that's who.

You're all out of your god damned minds. Biden ain't going to save us. And voting for him is voting for evil, straight up.
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thoreau
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Standardized tests have no predictive validity.

You don't need to know math in order to do physics.
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Shem
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Shem »

Warren wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 13:21 The worst thing I have to say about the Trump administration is probably Money Printer Go Brrrrr.
That's the worst thing, even though we're talking about the guy who did this. The whole "government policy of savagely and permanently traumatizing infants and children as a means of discouraging asylum seekers from using legally available means of petitioning to come here because of our drug war." That we've discussed repeatedly here. That you apparently ignore or minimize.

That post just drives it home completely; either you're ignoring this shit in order to grade Trump on a spectacularly generous curve, you have the moral sensibility of a tire fire, or both. I don't particularly care which, except to imagine that it's probably a good thing someone like that thinks I'm evil.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Painboy »

Shem wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 14:26
Warren wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 13:21 The worst thing I have to say about the Trump administration is probably Money Printer Go Brrrrr.
That's the worst thing, even though we're talking about the guy who did this. The whole "government policy of savagely and permanently traumatizing infants and children as a means of discouraging asylum seekers from using legally available means of petitioning to come here because of our drug war." That we've discussed repeatedly here. That you apparently ignore or minimize.

That post just drives it home completely; either you're ignoring this shit in order to grade Trump on a spectacularly generous curve, you have the moral sensibility of a tire fire, or both. I don't particularly care which, except to imagine that it's probably a good thing someone like that thinks I'm evil.
I understand where you all are coming with this. It's awful and a tragedy. But it's a small tragedy as things go. For instance just take net people killed by Trump policy decisions versus those of the last couple presidents. Whatever his reasons or motivations Trump's actions have resulted in a much lower body count than his predecessors. Why can't something like that be taking into account when evaluating him? Why does the tragedy you cited get precedence over others?
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

Who were the ~200k Americans who died on Obama's or Bush's watch?
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer »

Eric the .5b wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 17:23 Who were the ~200k Americans who died on Obama's or Bush's watch?
To be fair, there were the 17,000 who died of H1N1 in a single year, on Obama's watch. Remember when Trump called him out for that? As he (or his tweet-writer) put it, "17,000 people died unnecessarily and through incompetence!"

Personally, I think 17,000 dead in twelve months is less bad than 200,000 and rising in eight, but then I only have two English degrees as opposed to a STEM one.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Painboy »

Eric the .5b wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 17:23 Who were the ~200k Americans who died on Obama's or Bush's watch?
C'mon. Nobody in charge was going to be able stop or even change the course of this pandemic barring some sort of preternatural clairvoyance. There was just too many unknowns. And more and more it's being shown government policy has had little effect on the actual numbers. Just because the government passes laws doesn't mean the population is always going to go along with it. Being a "libertarian" forum that should be something everyone here should have some familiarity with.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jennifer »

Painboy wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 21:41
Eric the .5b wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 17:23 Who were the ~200k Americans who died on Obama's or Bush's watch?
C'mon. Nobody in charge was going to be able stop or even change the course of this pandemic barring some sort of preternatural clairvoyance. There was just too many unknowns. And more and more it's being shown government policy has had little effect on the actual numbers. Just because the government passes laws doesn't mean the population is always going to go along with it. Being a "libertarian" forum that should be something everyone here should have some familiarity with.
So you're saying Trump's decision to lie and deliberately downplay the severity of the virus was just fine?
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Jadagul
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jadagul »

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Something tells me Trump isn't worried about losing the Somali vote.
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Number 6
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Number 6 »

Source?
Not that I don’t buy it. But I’d like to know where that came from.
Covid was going to hurt no matter what. But there have been many policy failures that made it worse.
ETA: That was in response to the Amash tweet.
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Jadagul
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jadagul »

The next tweet in the thread has some source links.

https://www.newamerica.org/internationa ... n-somalia/
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/p ... 1-1&to=now
https://time.com/5879354/civilian-death ... s-somalia/

He is comparing Somalia to Somalia, not Somalia to Iraq or whatever. And it's (arguably) true that Trump hasn't actually opened up a new war front. (Yet. Growth mindset!)

But he's not particularly dovish and he's not trying to avoid murdering foreigners. He's in favor of it! (He tried to get the army to be more savage and commit more war crimes!) If you're giving him a pass on [some] covid deaths because it's not his fault he wound up in that situation, you shouldn't give him a pass on not winding up in an emergent Libya type situation. (And he's been trying pretty hard to start shit with Iran, obviously.)

Like, there are definitely ways to measure things where Trump comes out looking not too bad. I think those metrics are extremely naive and shortsighted. And anyone who thinks that Trump is, like, dispositionally a dove is fooling themselves.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Number 6 »

Jesus, I forgot about the suborning of war crimes. If I cared to give it 10 seconds thought, I could probably come up with ten more genuinely awful* things.
I’m happy with normal levels of awful. Any functioning adult will do.

*Not just awful in the within the realm of normal awful, but soul-sickeningly awful.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Pham Nuwen »

His superpower is he says so many stupid things and tries to do so many awful things that you literally cant keep it all straight.
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Shem
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Shem »

Painboy wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 21:41
Eric the .5b wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 17:23 Who were the ~200k Americans who died on Obama's or Bush's watch?
C'mon. Nobody in charge was going to be able stop or even change the course of this pandemic barring some sort of preternatural clairvoyance. There was just too many unknowns. And more and more it's being shown government policy has had little effect on the actual numbers. Just because the government passes laws doesn't mean the population is always going to go along with it. Being a "libertarian" forum that should be something everyone here should have some familiarity with.
Is that why all of western europe and Japan have maybe 700 deaths per week and we have over five thousand? Yeah, people were going to die, but saying "nobody could have prevented this" ignores all the places that did something and are now more or less on the other side of this.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen »

Pham Nuwen wrote: 12 Sep 2020, 23:01 His superpower is he says so many stupid things and tries to do so many awful things that you literally cant keep it all straight.
I've noticed that. Trump does something outrageously awful every few days. Nobody gets the time to digest the awfulness of what he's done and air it out thoroughly before he does something else as bad or worse and the previous awfulness gets buried by the new story.
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Pham Nuwen »

I guess I should put my cards on the table ...

I want him gone because of the oversight issues. You can defy and ignore congressional subpoenas as well as judicial orders. You can lie to everyone including judges and inspectors. You can involve foreign powers overtly now. It's all good so long as you are of a certain party affiliation. He needs to be gone before we end up living in a damn banana republic.
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