Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Highway
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Highway »

Now he's apparently given up on winning lawsuits in Michigan, and going directly to trying to bully the state legislature (which said 2 days ago they're not going to change the results of the election):
From CNN
14 min ago
Trump invites GOP lawmakers from Michigan to White House

From CNN's Kevin Liptak

President Trump has invited Republican state lawmakers from Michigan to the White House on Friday, according to a person familiar with the matter, as he works to interfere in the results of the election.

It's not clear at this point how many lawmakers will come. Trump extended the invitation on Thursday morning by calling the state senate's Republican majority leader.

Nor was it immediately clear what Trump's message would be to the lawmakers. The person familiar also confirmed Trump spoke Tuesday evening with two Wayne County canvass board members to offer his support as they went back and forth on voting to certify election results.
I'm sure there's a perfectly logical reason to have them show up. In a pandemic.
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Aresen
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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Highway wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 14:21 Now he's apparently given up on winning lawsuits in Michigan, and going directly to trying to bully the state legislature (which said 2 days ago they're not going to change the results of the election):
From CNN
14 min ago
Trump invites GOP lawmakers from Michigan to White House

From CNN's Kevin Liptak

President Trump has invited Republican state lawmakers from Michigan to the White House on Friday, according to a person familiar with the matter, as he works to interfere in the results of the election.

It's not clear at this point how many lawmakers will come. Trump extended the invitation on Thursday morning by calling the state senate's Republican majority leader.

Nor was it immediately clear what Trump's message would be to the lawmakers. The person familiar also confirmed Trump spoke Tuesday evening with two Wayne County canvass board members to offer his support as they went back and forth on voting to certify election results.
I'm sure there's a perfectly logical reason to have them show up. In a pandemic.
Considering how endemic COVID19 is in the White House, I sure the hell wouldn't show up.
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Number 6
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Number 6 »

Am I allowed to freak out yet?
If not, why not?
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Shem
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Shem »

Number 6 wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 18:59 Am I allowed to freak out yet?
If not, why not?
No. Because nothing has actually happened, and all the people who actually control what happens are still following the law. If a state elections board goes rogue, we have a problem, but for right now, freaking out just gives him more respect than his lunacy deserves. And that's a big part of how he accomplishes things people don't think he can do.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Trump's single-handedly doing what no one else could do: convincing me he should be charged with sedition.
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Jadagul
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jadagul »

Shem wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 19:42
Number 6 wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 18:59 Am I allowed to freak out yet?
If not, why not?
No. Because nothing has actually happened, and all the people who actually control what happens are still following the law. If a state elections board goes rogue, we have a problem, but for right now, freaking out just gives him more respect than his lunacy deserves. And that's a big part of how he accomplishes things people don't think he can do.
I vote you should be angry but calm. Trump is attacking our Democratic foundations, and trying to launch a coup (or autogolpe, I think). And he's hilariously incompetent and it's failing, so you don't need to worry about him _actually overthrowing the government_. But it's not a good thing.
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dead_elvis
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by dead_elvis »

Jadagul wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 20:54 and it's failing,
Is it though? 52% of Republicans think Biden is stealing the election through widespread voter fraud. Not a huge number of actual people, but not insignificant either IMO. He might not succeed in continuing to be president, but he's doing a fantastic job of plastering the country with FUD. These days a lie travels around the world several times before the truth has left the house. And if they aren't open to news from a variety of sources, they'll never even hear the truth at all.
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thoreau
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

I admit, I'm kind of worried that the Republican leaders of the Michigan legislature agreed to meet with him at the White House. I don't think Trump will ultimately get what he wants, but they shouldn't be indulging his illiberal delusions. Even just meeting with him sends the message that it's OK to try to negotiate his way out of this. We need a very strong norm that once the votes have been counted, barring a margin so thin that further evaluation is appropriate (or strong evidence of misconduct, a threshold the courts have yet to see), losers step down gracefully. If democracy isn't about clean transitions of power then what is the point?

The only way their meeting with him can be justified is if they use it as an opportunity to deliver strong rebukes. Preferably in view of the press.

Even most of the Trump-Russia stuff was not about whether Trump actually won in 2016 (I think it's quite clear he won those states), but whether he was personally compromised. I have said a gazillion times that I don't give a fuck about troll farms, and I wish the rest of the #Resistance had espoused a similar stance. It was dangerous to say that Trump didn't win cleanly when it's abundantly clear that he won the most votes in key states. Whether they voted for him because they read troll posts or because they're honestly stupid enough to do this unbidden, they did it, and that makes him the legit winner of 2016.

And, yes, many of us wanted him impeached from the start, but that's because he violated the emoluments clause from his first second in office. It was never a question of whether he was a winner, it was a question of whether he was following the rules in office.
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Jadagul
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Jadagul »

dead_elvis wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 22:37
Jadagul wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 20:54 and it's failing,
Is it though? 52% of Republicans think Biden is stealing the election through widespread voter fraud. Not a huge number of actual people, but not insignificant either IMO. He might not succeed in continuing to be president, but he's doing a fantastic job of plastering the country with FUD. These days a lie travels around the world several times before the truth has left the house. And if they aren't open to news from a variety of sources, they'll never even hear the truth at all.

Yes, "he might not succeed in continuing to be president" (I would say "will not") is the "he is failing", and "he's doing a fantastic job of plastering the country with FUD" is the "attacking our democratic foundations and this is very bad".

He is attempting to launch a coup! He is attempting ineptly, and the coup will fail, and that is a good thing, and so if you're worried about him successfully maintaining the presidency you can relax about that worry. But the attempt is still a coup attempt and it's still doing damage and that is a bad thing.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen »

Jadagul wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 23:37
dead_elvis wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 22:37
Jadagul wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 20:54 and it's failing,
Is it though? 52% of Republicans think Biden is stealing the election through widespread voter fraud. Not a huge number of actual people, but not insignificant either IMO. He might not succeed in continuing to be president, but he's doing a fantastic job of plastering the country with FUD. These days a lie travels around the world several times before the truth has left the house. And if they aren't open to news from a variety of sources, they'll never even hear the truth at all.

Yes, "he might not succeed in continuing to be president" (I would say "will not") is the "he is failing", and "he's doing a fantastic job of plastering the country with FUD" is the "attacking our democratic foundations and this is very bad".

He is attempting to launch a coup! He is attempting ineptly, and the coup will fail, and that is a good thing, and so if you're worried about him successfully maintaining the presidency you can relax about that worry. But the attempt is still a coup attempt and it's still doing damage and that is a bad thing.
My concern is the Smarter Donald Trump® in eight, sixteen or twenty years who is taking notes and will do it eptly.
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Kolohe
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Kolohe »

Number 6 wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 18:59 Am I allowed to freak out yet?
If not, why not?
Tucker Carlson (of all people) throwing cold water on this shit last night brought me back from the edge.
(As well as Ivanka whining that she now has to pay taxes)
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Hugh Akston »

Shem wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 19:42
Number 6 wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 18:59 Am I allowed to freak out yet?
If not, why not?
No. Because nothing has actually happened, and all the people who actually control what happens are still following the law. If a state elections board goes rogue, we have a problem, but for right now, freaking out just gives him more respect than his lunacy deserves. And that's a big part of how he accomplishes things people don't think he can do.
This is basically my take. State election officials are certifying the counts, and judges are throwing out his garbage lawsuits. Come January 20th he'll be escorted out of the White House by the Secret Service, if need be. Like all toddler tantrums, it creates an inconvenience, but it doesn't accomplish the end he wants.
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Shem
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Shem »

And, this stuff is scary when you're in it, but depending on how it ends, it can actually wind up leaving the system stronger rather than weaker, if it means people like Tucker Carlson wind up asserting a rule rather then trying to play politics.
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thoreau
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

I'd be less scared if more Republicans joined Tucker Carlson. Too many are indulging Trump's delusions, and a smarter authoritarian might be taking notes right now.

To be clear, I'm quite certain that Diamond Joe will be installing blacklights in the White House by the evening of January 20, but bad lessons are being learned.
"saying 'socialism' where normies can hear it is wrapping a bunch of barbed wire around a bat, handing the bat to the GOP, and standing with your head in the strike zone."
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by lunchstealer »

It is fundamentally corrupt behavior. The Republicans who are actively enabling this shit are 90% as corrupt. The ones who are passively enabling it by keeping quiet and humoring him are still pretty corrupt. The Republicans who are taking this seriously are few and far between. The ones who took a call from Trump and then 'rescinded' their votes to certify (fortunately that's not a thing and the cert had gone to the state and was out of their hands) should be charged with corruption. As should Trump. That is election interference, pure and simple.

At some point inept election interference is not just expressing an opinion. It's interfering with an election. Graham may have intended his bullshit suggestion that votes be thrown out as a joke, but some things are don't-fuck-around zones, and with a president making accusations of a widespread conspiracy for which there is no evidence, talking to a secretary of state about engaging in the kind of election interference you are baselessly accusing the other side of engaging in is absolutely a don't-fuck-around zone. Graham should be ejected from office and charged with election interference.

Pompeo should never work in government again, and should be unwelcome at any Republican function again, for his 'smooth transition to a second Trump administration' line.

None of this is to say that Republicans absolutely had to say that Biden was elected full stop. A Republican who only went so far as to say something like, "This election was unprecedented and carried out under difficult conditions and so while there is no current credible evidence of fraud widespread enough to cast serious doubt on the margin of Biden's victory we should still take our time to ensure the validity of the result," but who went no further and didn't treat it like a joke or undermine faith in the system or indulge a sitting president in doing so is not out of bounds, but if asked they should state unequivocally that obstructing a legitimate transition process at this point is deeply irresponsible and highly suspect, and that the President needs to follow the transition process in good faith even if it somehow turns out that he actually does show that he won the election. The number of Republicans doing that are damn near none.

I'm not super pessimistic about the possibility of Trump remaining in office Jan 21, but that I am not totally blasé about it should be enough to justify Seis's freakout.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen »

I am eagerly awaiting Sidney Powell's 'mountain' of evidence of election fraud. It promises to be the best laugh of this cycle.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

Aresen wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 13:26 I am eagerly awaiting Sidney Powell's 'mountain' of evidence of election fraud. It promises to be the best laugh of this cycle.
At this point, they have whole mountain ranges of supposed evidence that somehow are never worth bringing into court.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Eric the .5b »

I do wonder if there a silver lining to this, where Team Trump can possibly drag this out so pathetically that it costs him support among the rabid fanbase.
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Eric the .5b wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 15:33 I do wonder if there a silver lining to this, where Team Trump can possibly drag this out so pathetically that it costs him support among the rabid fanbase.
If he shot a nun in the middle of 5th avenue with a gun handed to him--on camera--by a GRU officer, and then defiled the nun's corpse, his fan base would say that the nun is MS13.

So, no.
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thoreau
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

Apparently the MI legislators are taking a legal risk by meeting with Trump.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... ing-438538
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Aresen
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Aresen »

thoreau wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 15:38
Eric the .5b wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 15:33 I do wonder if there a silver lining to this, where Team Trump can possibly drag this out so pathetically that it costs him support among the rabid fanbase.
If he shot a nun in the middle of 5th avenue with a gun handed to him--on camera--by a GRU officer, and then defiled the nun's corpse, his fan base would say that the nun is MS13.

So, no.
Agree. I think the bigger risk is the inspiration Trump is giving to would-be Timothy McVeighs.
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Number 6
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

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I’m not going to repeat the comments made by the more educated and erudite people above. I will say that while I think the odds of Trump pulling off a steal of the Electoral College are minimal, he is already taking a bulldozer to the institutions and norms that underpin our system. That damage won’t be undone soon, and he is paving the way for the next, more competent, tyrant.
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Shem
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Shem »

Eric the .5b wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 15:33 I do wonder if there a silver lining to this, where Team Trump can possibly drag this out so pathetically that it costs him support among the rabid fanbase.
I can't imagine it would. But, between discouraging Trumpists concerned with fraud, disgusting Republicans who don't, and galvanizing the opposition, it might cost them the Senate, though.
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Ellie
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by Ellie »



Thread.

I thought this was an interesting take, although I'm not sure I give Trump that much credit for accepting he is going to leave the office at some point.

I do agree though that he's not trying to stage a coup because he craves power (though I also acknowledge people pointing out he doesn't have to be doing that for future power-hungry politicians to be learning from it). He craves attention and one-upmanship, which he gets from being in a place of power, but that's not the same. I agree that what he's doing right now is clinging to his position out of fear of what comes next but I think he's trying to avoid whatever loans are gonna come due -- and probably secret promises he made that he hasn't kept -- rather than actually conceiving of himself as trading chaos for immunity. And also I think there's a genuine part of him that believes if he stamps his foot and bluffs hard enough, the rules will get changed for him, like he's trying to get a restaurant table without a reservation, because it's worked so often before and he's so unwilling to admit anything is bigger than him.

But I've been wrong about Trump on like 95% of my takes, so, who knows.
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thoreau
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Re: Calling 2020 for Entropy

Post by thoreau »

The Trumpistanis are holding a rally at an intersection in my neighborhood. While stopped at a red light I rolled down my window and told them to go back to Russia.
"saying 'socialism' where normies can hear it is wrapping a bunch of barbed wire around a bat, handing the bat to the GOP, and standing with your head in the strike zone."
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