Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

User avatar
Hugh Akston
Posts: 18437
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:51
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Angeles
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Hugh Akston » 06 Sep 2019, 15:50

Jennifer wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 15:46
Hugh Akston wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 15:40
Yeah I assume kids would get the benefit paid to parents, transitioning to the kids either entirely at 18 or gradually from 14-15 on. It might be worth rethinking if people started popping out kids like pez just to live high on the UBI hog, but Hungary (among others) throwing benefits at fertile wombs doesn't seem to be reversing the general fertility decline, so I think it's a risk worth taking.
I just-now did a quick Google of Hungary's benefits for parents -- it's not enough to make parenthood actually PROFITABLE, merely enough to somewhat offset the higher costs parents face compared to non-parents. If your only metric is "How much money do I have left each month after paying the basics for myself and any family members I have," a childfree Hungarian is financially still better off than a Hungarian parent with those benefits, all else being equal.
Which would be the same under a UBI. Kids are expensive, and the UBI would run out pretty quick even with the shared cost of shelter and durable goods.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24689
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Jennifer » 06 Sep 2019, 16:00

Hugh Akston wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 15:50
Jennifer wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 15:46
Hugh Akston wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 15:40
Yeah I assume kids would get the benefit paid to parents, transitioning to the kids either entirely at 18 or gradually from 14-15 on. It might be worth rethinking if people started popping out kids like pez just to live high on the UBI hog, but Hungary (among others) throwing benefits at fertile wombs doesn't seem to be reversing the general fertility decline, so I think it's a risk worth taking.
I just-now did a quick Google of Hungary's benefits for parents -- it's not enough to make parenthood actually PROFITABLE, merely enough to somewhat offset the higher costs parents face compared to non-parents. If your only metric is "How much money do I have left each month after paying the basics for myself and any family members I have," a childfree Hungarian is financially still better off than a Hungarian parent with those benefits, all else being equal.
Which would be the same under a UBI. Kids are expensive, and the UBI would run out pretty quick even with the shared cost of shelter and durable goods.
From the perspective of, say, some never-married dipshit who quit her McDonald's cashier job after getting knocked up with kid #9 (NOT a hypothetical example -- you might recall this was a "case study" story from the last daily-newspaper job I had), getting an extra $1,000 per month per kid WOULD seem like a windfall. (Not to mention: I don't think we'd need more than a handful of "This never-married dipshit collects $10K per month in tax money just for fucking" stories before the entire program collapsed beneath outrage).
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
JD
Posts: 11391
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:26
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by JD » 06 Sep 2019, 16:12

Jennifer wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 16:00
From the perspective of, say, some never-married dipshit who quit her McDonald's cashier job after getting knocked up with kid #9 (NOT a hypothetical example -- you might recall this was a "case study" story from the last daily-newspaper job I had), getting an extra $1,000 per month per kid WOULD seem like a windfall. (Not to mention: I don't think we'd need more than a handful of "This never-married dipshit collects $10K per month in tax money just for fucking" stories before the entire program collapsed beneath outrage).
And this might be the Scylla and Charybdis of a UBI: on the one hand, we'd have outrage at "Unemployed woman earns $120,000 per year at taxpayer expense!", and on the other, we'd have "Kids starve after heartless mom spends entire UBI at casino!". This is why I think that politically, a UBI will never replace traditional welfare.
I sort of feel like a sucker about aspiring to be intellectually rigorous when I could just go on twitter and say capitalism causes space herpes and no one will challenge me on it. - Hugh Akston

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 9971
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by nicole » 06 Sep 2019, 16:16

I mean...we already pay people wayyy more than $1k cash annually per kid.

(ETA not counting allllllllllllllllll the bajillion other subsidies for all parents or the additional ones for poor parents)
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"Sliced bagels aren't why trump won; it's why it doesn't matter who wins." -dhex

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24689
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Jennifer » 06 Sep 2019, 16:30

JD wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 16:12
Jennifer wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 16:00
From the perspective of, say, some never-married dipshit who quit her McDonald's cashier job after getting knocked up with kid #9 (NOT a hypothetical example -- you might recall this was a "case study" story from the last daily-newspaper job I had), getting an extra $1,000 per month per kid WOULD seem like a windfall. (Not to mention: I don't think we'd need more than a handful of "This never-married dipshit collects $10K per month in tax money just for fucking" stories before the entire program collapsed beneath outrage).
And this might be the Scylla and Charybdis of a UBI: on the one hand, we'd have outrage at "Unemployed woman earns $120,000 per year at taxpayer expense!", and on the other, we'd have "Kids starve after heartless mom spends entire UBI at casino!".
Even now, and regarding parents who earn all their own money rather than rely on taxpayer largesse to support their kids, when a kid starves or suffers malnutrition because mom and dad blew all the money, the general response is NOT "give the parents more money" but "arrest the parents and hand the kids over to someone else."

I also have reason to believe (and anecdotal evidence to support it) that even among the more "bleeding heart"" types, there's not a lot of sympathy for people THAT irresponsible. Here's one such anecdote to show this: back in 2014 there was a Gryll discussion that started when I posted an article Jamelle Bouie wrote in Slate.

As I wrote then: "The story's main box quote: "Thousands of families are desperately poor because the state has punished them for having a child it didn’t want them to have." No, those families are poor because, despite being unable to support the children they already had, they decided to have still more, and they're upset because their welfare benefits didn't increase as much as they think they should."

And after some commentary by various people here, I later posted this: "One possible good thing, though: I can't read the comment thread because of whatever-the-fuck script-blocking crap Jeff installed, but I can see the first words of the "top comment," which gets its own little box on the second page: "A spectacularly wrong-headed article." .... Ah, managed to load the comments. So far, despite the overall leftiness of Slate readership, I've seen NOBODY who agrees with Bouie. Maybe Slate hired him solely as clickbait?"
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24689
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Jennifer » 06 Sep 2019, 16:35

That said, I'd maybe offer a compromise: UBI for adults only ... BUT we'll keep EBT (the program formerly known as food stamps) to provide food assistance to households whose cash income -- whether UBI only, or UBI plus wages for people with unusually large numbers of children -- still falls below whatever official poverty level exists.

(Then, too, consider that with a UBI, for cases like Mama Dipshit with her nine kids as of 2010, and Zod knows how many more she's had by now -- yeah, she's only getting the 1k per month or so, plus maybe food stamps, which still isn't enough for a 10-person household .... but there's also the UBIs of the kids' various fathers to be dinged for child support.)
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 4223
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Painboy » 06 Sep 2019, 17:02

I'm a little confused what kind of UBI everyone is talking about. How exactly are we thinking this is done?

My understanding was that everyone in the country got a check in the mail for the same $X every month. They can then work as normal to earn anything beyond that. Then maybe kids get a certain amount of there own added to their parents check until the kids are 18 or determined to be working on their own.

Is that the gist of what others are thinking?

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24689
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Jennifer » 06 Sep 2019, 17:03

Jennifer wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 16:35
That said, I'd maybe offer a compromise: UBI for adults only ... BUT we'll keep EBT (the program formerly known as food stamps) to provide food assistance to households whose cash income -- whether UBI only, or UBI plus wages for people with unusually large numbers of children -- still falls below whatever official poverty level exists.

Better yet: a cash increase, but for kids below 18 you only get one-tenth the amount of the UBI. So if the UBI is $250 per adult per week, you get an extra $25 a week for every child you have.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 24689
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Jennifer » 06 Sep 2019, 17:05

Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 17:02
I'm a little confused what kind of UBI everyone is talking about. How exactly are we thinking this is done?

My understanding was that everyone in the country got a check in the mail for the same $X every month. They can then work as normal to earn anything beyond that. Then maybe kids get a certain amount of there own added to their parents check until the kids are 18 or determined to be working on their own.

Is that the gist of what others are thinking?
That's pretty much what I'm talking about, yes (although I would prefer payments either weekly or biweekly, to slightly alleviate certain end-of-the-month poverty problems which, as I understand it, are a serious thing now among recipients of today's once-a-month assistance benefits).
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
JD
Posts: 11391
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:26
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by JD » 06 Sep 2019, 17:06

Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 17:02
I'm a little confused what kind of UBI everyone is talking about. How exactly are we thinking this is done?

My understanding was that everyone in the country got a check in the mail for the same $X every month. They can then work as normal to earn anything beyond that. Then maybe kids get a certain amount of there own added to their parents check until the kids are 18 or determined to be working on their own.

Is that the gist of what others are thinking?
I think that's the general idea of UBI, yes. The devil tends to be in the details.
I sort of feel like a sucker about aspiring to be intellectually rigorous when I could just go on twitter and say capitalism causes space herpes and no one will challenge me on it. - Hugh Akston

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 4223
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Painboy » 06 Sep 2019, 17:09

Well if that's how it works I'm trying to figure out how anyone not a citizen would ever get a job. Because a business certainly isn't going to make up the lack of UBI money except in rare highly coveted people. That would mean that non-citizens would make substantially less than citizens for most work.

User avatar
Hugh Akston
Posts: 18437
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:51
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Angeles
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Hugh Akston » 06 Sep 2019, 17:15

Tax rates under a UBI would be progressive, so by the time you got a job with pretty good pay, you would likely be paying more into the system than you would be getting out. UBI is intended to function as a safety net for the out of work and a supplement for low-income folks.
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24981
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Mo » 06 Sep 2019, 17:28

Painboy wrote:Well if that's how it works I'm trying to figure out how anyone not a citizen would ever get a job. Because a business certainly isn't going to make up the lack of UBI money except in rare highly coveted people. That would mean that non-citizens would make substantially less than citizens for most work.
Because you don’t cliff the benefit off at zero. The U in UBI is universal, so little to no means testing.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 4223
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Painboy » 06 Sep 2019, 17:55

So using some simple numbers let's say everyone gets $10,000 a year for UBI. A fast food place offers an additional $5000 a year to work there. If a non-citizen wants to work there they're not getting the other $10,000 a citizen gets and the company isn't going to make that up. What am I missing here?

User avatar
Dangerman
Posts: 6820
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Dangerman » 06 Sep 2019, 18:33

I don't understand why price increases won't just eat most of the benefit very quickly. By the fact that nobody else seems to see this, I can conclude that it's probably not true? But I still don't understand why it isn't. Smart people of grylliade, educate me one.

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 24981
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Mo » 06 Sep 2019, 18:38

Because the majority of spend isn’t on necessities, even among low income folks. Most necessities are commodities, which will basically be priced at marginal cost. The exception being housing, but even that doesn’t take up a majority of spend. So then you’re left with non-housing, non-essentials vying for consumer spend, but its distributed so broadly that $10k/person will have only moderately inflationary effects.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
JD
Posts: 11391
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:26
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by JD » 06 Sep 2019, 18:54

Hugh Akston wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 17:15
UBI is intended to function as a safety net for the out of work and a supplement for low-income folks.
Well, depending on who you talk to, anyway. There's a segment of the loony left that wants UBI because it would be THE END OF CAPITALISM or some such; these people are a minority but are loud out of proportion to their numbers.
I sort of feel like a sucker about aspiring to be intellectually rigorous when I could just go on twitter and say capitalism causes space herpes and no one will challenge me on it. - Hugh Akston

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 24571
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by JasonL » 06 Sep 2019, 19:05

Inflation is not something I particularly worry about at the levels typically in play.

User avatar
Hugh Akston
Posts: 18437
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:51
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Angeles
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Hugh Akston » 06 Sep 2019, 19:20

Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 17:55
So using some simple numbers let's say everyone gets $10,000 a year for UBI. A fast food place offers an additional $5000 a year to work there. If a non-citizen wants to work there they're not getting the other $10,000 a citizen gets and the company isn't going to make that up. What am I missing here?
Even at PT hours $5k a year is $4.80/hr, which no one nowhere is paying regardless of minimum wage laws. Why would wages take such a precipitous dive as a result of a UBI?
"Is a Lulztopia the best we can hope for?!?" ~Taktix®
"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

User avatar
JD
Posts: 11391
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:26
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by JD » 06 Sep 2019, 19:24

Hugh Akston wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 19:20
Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 17:55
So using some simple numbers let's say everyone gets $10,000 a year for UBI. A fast food place offers an additional $5000 a year to work there. If a non-citizen wants to work there they're not getting the other $10,000 a citizen gets and the company isn't going to make that up. What am I missing here?
Even at PT hours $5k a year is $4.80/hr, which no one nowhere is paying regardless of minimum wage laws. Why would wages take such a precipitous dive as a result of a UBI?
I have actually seen UBI proponents make both arguments: If we have a UBI...

1. Wages for low-skilled jobs will go up, because now that people don't need the job just to stay alive, employers will have to make it a lot more appealing to take the job
2. Wages for low-skilled jobs will go down, because now that people don't need the job just to stay alive, they'll have less incentive to care about the money
I sort of feel like a sucker about aspiring to be intellectually rigorous when I could just go on twitter and say capitalism causes space herpes and no one will challenge me on it. - Hugh Akston

User avatar
Painboy
Posts: 4223
Joined: 18 Feb 2013, 11:33
Location: Seattle
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Painboy » 06 Sep 2019, 19:31

Hugh Akston wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 19:20
Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 17:55
So using some simple numbers let's say everyone gets $10,000 a year for UBI. A fast food place offers an additional $5000 a year to work there. If a non-citizen wants to work there they're not getting the other $10,000 a citizen gets and the company isn't going to make that up. What am I missing here?
Even at PT hours $5k a year is $4.80/hr, which no one nowhere is paying regardless of minimum wage laws. Why would wages take such a precipitous dive as a result of a UBI?
Because the person is already going to be getting $10k a year. The value of the job is $15k a year. The company isn't going to give them another $15k on top of their UBI. They'll just provide the $5k difference.

Even if they were to pay it on top of that the non-citizen is still getting $10k less than a citizen for the same work.

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 14038
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Sep 2019, 20:16

I'm Team Painboy on this. I'm not sure how a significant UBI (of the "provides a comfortable existence" sort) wouldn't set up a serious fiscal problem with immigration. And just making it unavailable to immigrants would put them at a serious disadvantage in the job market.

Mind, it probably wouldn't affect a lot of migrant labor, because Anglos on the dole who want extra pocket-change won't look for the same jobs that folks from Mexico will.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 7214
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Jadagul » 06 Sep 2019, 20:20

Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 19:31
Hugh Akston wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 19:20
Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 17:55
So using some simple numbers let's say everyone gets $10,000 a year for UBI. A fast food place offers an additional $5000 a year to work there. If a non-citizen wants to work there they're not getting the other $10,000 a citizen gets and the company isn't going to make that up. What am I missing here?
Even at PT hours $5k a year is $4.80/hr, which no one nowhere is paying regardless of minimum wage laws. Why would wages take such a precipitous dive as a result of a UBI?
Because the person is already going to be getting $10k a year. The value of the job is $15k a year. The company isn't going to give them another $15k on top of their UBI. They'll just provide the $5k difference.

Even if they were to pay it on top of that the non-citizen is still getting $10k less than a citizen for the same work.
This doesn't make any sense. The jobs will pay the amount they need for people to think it's worth it. If the job produces $15k of value, you can afford to pay $15k to get people. In a competitive market that's where the wages will be.

That has nothing to do with any other sources of income your employees may have.

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 14038
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Sep 2019, 20:27

Jadagul wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 20:20
Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 19:31
Hugh Akston wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 19:20
Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 17:55
So using some simple numbers let's say everyone gets $10,000 a year for UBI. A fast food place offers an additional $5000 a year to work there. If a non-citizen wants to work there they're not getting the other $10,000 a citizen gets and the company isn't going to make that up. What am I missing here?
Even at PT hours $5k a year is $4.80/hr, which no one nowhere is paying regardless of minimum wage laws. Why would wages take such a precipitous dive as a result of a UBI?
Because the person is already going to be getting $10k a year. The value of the job is $15k a year. The company isn't going to give them another $15k on top of their UBI. They'll just provide the $5k difference.

Even if they were to pay it on top of that the non-citizen is still getting $10k less than a citizen for the same work.
This doesn't make any sense. The jobs will pay the amount they need for people to think it's worth it. If the job produces $15k of value, you can afford to pay $15k to get people. In a competitive market that's where the wages will be.

That has nothing to do with any other sources of income your employees may have.
If the job produces $15k of value and you can get people to do it for $5k because they already get $10k for breathing, then you'll pay $5k.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 7214
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Money for Nothing: the Universal Basic Income

Post by Jadagul » 06 Sep 2019, 20:33

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 20:27
Jadagul wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 20:20
Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 19:31
Hugh Akston wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 19:20
Painboy wrote:
06 Sep 2019, 17:55
So using some simple numbers let's say everyone gets $10,000 a year for UBI. A fast food place offers an additional $5000 a year to work there. If a non-citizen wants to work there they're not getting the other $10,000 a citizen gets and the company isn't going to make that up. What am I missing here?
Even at PT hours $5k a year is $4.80/hr, which no one nowhere is paying regardless of minimum wage laws. Why would wages take such a precipitous dive as a result of a UBI?
Because the person is already going to be getting $10k a year. The value of the job is $15k a year. The company isn't going to give them another $15k on top of their UBI. They'll just provide the $5k difference.

Even if they were to pay it on top of that the non-citizen is still getting $10k less than a citizen for the same work.
This doesn't make any sense. The jobs will pay the amount they need for people to think it's worth it. If the job produces $15k of value, you can afford to pay $15k to get people. In a competitive market that's where the wages will be.

That has nothing to do with any other sources of income your employees may have.
If the job produces $15k of value and you can get people to do it for $5k because they already get $10k for breathing, then you'll pay $5k.
That's true, but doesn't explain why people would do it for $5k.

Like, if you can get people to do it for $5k and they don't get any other money, you'll also pay $5k. The question is whether a UBI makes people more or less willing to accept less money.

My guess is that they will be willing to accept _less_ money for jobs that they value intrinsically/involve doing good in the world, and _more_ money for jobs that they don't like. Which seems like a good-ish thing probably? Though not definitely.

But also that's a guess, not a data.

Post Reply
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests