Random covid-19 observations

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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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I won't deny you are ill-suited to the post-apocalyptic world, my friend.
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Mo
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Ron DeSantis is a scumbag
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Mo wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 17:26 Ron DeSantis is a scumbag
Yes. What did he do?
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Ellie
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Shem wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 14:54
Jennifer wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 14:32 When the current crop of minor children comes of age, their generation will have far higher rates of OCD/germophobic tendencies than any of their parents or grandparents did.
That's not how OCD works.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Shem wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 14:54
Jennifer wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 14:32 When the current crop of minor children comes of age, their generation will have far higher rates of OCD/germophobic tendencies than any of their parents or grandparents did.
That's not how OCD works.
As I understand it, the actual cause is not known (the Mayo Clinic lists the three main theories as biology, genetics and learning, and "stressful life events" as one of three possible risk factors); if learned behavior and/or stressful events are indeed responsible sometimes, I can definitely foresee future problems for certain kids now in their formative years: life was normal until suddenly everything changed, they're basically living under house arrest, many of them in families now facing financial and other forms of stress, and all the while they keep hearing how you've got to wash your hands and sanitize everything because there's these invisible, inaudible little threats that might make you sick or might even kill you, or you'll be fine but you'll kill Nana if she gets it from you ... and I mean no insult or disrespect toward any sufferer of any mental illness when I say: I think a lot of these kids are going to develop problems when they get older, compared to previous generations.

That said, if there are reasons to be more optimistic -- "the kids'll be fine, this won't affect them much" -- or reasons to be pessimistic in a different way -- "the kids'll have problems, but unrelated to germophobia or OCD" -- I would genuinely be interested in hearing them.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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It's been so long since Americans have had to suffer directly and in a manner that meant real, personal hardship to the general population that our best basis of comparison may well end up being other nations that personally, directly survived wars. Yes, 9/11 fundamentally changed American culture for the worse, but you really have to be at least pushing middle age to have lived through it and understood what was happening. And at that, did my life change all that much? Not really.

The virus is going to pass even if it *does* end up killing a million people in the U.S. first. It's not Captain Fucking Trips. But we're going to have staggering unemployment in a matter of months and a good number of those unemployed people's former jobs may well have disappeared for good. Government officials are already talking about the possibility of a 30% unemployment rate. Holy Shit! The highest unemployment ever got in the Great Depression was a tad under 25%. Who knows how long it will take to dig out of the economic mess we're in? Are we talking months or years?

I think germophobia, OCD or any other DSM disorder short of genuine psychosis is the least of the next generation's problems.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Other random observation: since I've been stuck at home anyway I've been doing various little cleaning and re-organizing projects. The last time I did a serious home organization, a couple years ago, I already happened to have several plastic countertop chests of drawers and other organizational stuff on hand, plus I made frequent trips to Dollar Tree and, over the course of maybe a week, dropped anywhere from 40 to 60 dollars on plastic bins and containers of varying sizes and shapes. Now, of course, I'm finding all sorts of ways it would be useful for me to have more cheap plastic bins and containers in varying shapes and sizes, and Dollar Tree is literally right down the road from me and I have money to buy plenty of things at THAT price point ... but I stayed home solely because I figured "Yeah, I'd like to have more containers, and I'd certainly be willing to risk going out and catching something if this were ordinary cold and flu season -- but the more I hear about covid-19, the more I don't want to risk it even with gloves and hand sanitizers and other paraphernalia which, in the Before Time, I never bothered with even during the height of the winter sickness season."
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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I have no doubt that there will be people who come away from this with psychological issues. But OCD is a very particular issue, it has a definition, and I'd be loathe to predict which type(s) of psychological issues will be most common.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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D.A. Ridgely wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 19:18 It's been so long since Americans have had to suffer directly and in a manner that meant real, personal hardship to the general population that our best basis of comparison may well end up being other nations that personally, directly survived wars. Yes, 9/11 fundamentally changed American culture for the worse, but you really have to be at least pushing middle age to have lived through it and understood what was happening. And at that, did my life change all that much? Not really.

The virus is going to pass even if it *does* end up killing a million people in the U.S. first. It's not Captain Fucking Trips. But we're going to have staggering unemployment in a matter of months and a good number of those unemployed people's former jobs may well have disappeared for good. Government officials are already talking about the possibility of a 30% unemployment rate. Holy Shit! The highest unemployment ever got in the Great Depression was a tad under 25%. Who knows how long it will take to dig out of the economic mess we're in? Are we talking months or years?

I think germophobia, OCD or any other DSM disorder short of genuine psychosis is the least of the next generation's problems.
Oh, to be sure, where "traumatic, history-making events" are concerned, 2020 Americans living through The Pandemic still have it far easier in many many way than, say, "Europeans in World War Two" or "Okies in the Depression," whether adults or children. But for all the ways the 2020 Pandemic is less unpleasant to live through than multiple things you could mention -- and especially, for all the ways (for example) a young child cowering in an air-raid shelter during the Blitz is experiencing something far more immediately terrifying than a modern American kid cooped up indoors at home all day -- when specifically thinking about the psychological effects on children and teens compared to full-fledged adults ... this sudden social (or at least physical) isolation from everyone except your immediate household is something unique. And the focus on germs, viruses, wash your hands even though they look clean, sanitize that surface just in case, no we can't go anywhere fun or even visit your friends next door because of this invisible threat is likely to be especially confusing or traumatizing to kids who inherently aren't able to fully understand the rationales yet.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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thoreau wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 19:27 I have no doubt that there will be people who come away from this with psychological issues. But OCD is a very particular issue, it has a definition, and I'd be loathe to predict which type(s) of psychological issues will be most common.
If my casual off-the-cuff use of "OCD" in the same sentence as "germophobia" in the context of "psychological disorders involving the frequent washing of hands" is indeed a problem, then anyone discussing it here is of course completely free to substitute something better. Maybe I'll adopt that better use myself, similar to how I adopted the World War two-era phrase "for the duration" to discuss the quarantine in various contexts.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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All the kids on my street have been outside playing together when I get home from work. Everybody and his cousin is walking his dog all over the neighborhood. I'm ready to lick a toilet seat and get this over with.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Fulton County (which includes part of Atlanta) issued a more stringent stay-at-home order: stay home or face jailtime. Apparently this was inspired, in part, by certain city parks being absolutely packed with people. (When Jeff and I went out to a park for the last time, we rejected our favorite local state park precisely because the hiking/nature trails were narrow enough that maintaining six feet would be impossible, should anyone pass the other way.)

ETA: Oh, and dipshit Governor Kemp just now issued a statewide stay-home order ... starting two days from now. Dude claims he only just now learned it can be contagious before anyone starts to show symptoms.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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The only cop I have seen in 2 weeks is the one in his usual speed trap location. No one here is being hassled for anything but speeding.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Jennifer wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 19:35 Oh, to be sure, where "traumatic, history-making events" are concerned, 2020 Americans living through The Pandemic still have it far easier in many many way than, say, "Europeans in World War Two" or "Okies in the Depression," whether adults or children. But for all the ways the 2020 Pandemic is less unpleasant to live through than multiple things you could mention -- and especially, for all the ways (for example) a young child cowering in an air-raid shelter during the Blitz is experiencing something far more immediately terrifying than a modern American kid cooped up indoors at home all day -- when specifically thinking about the psychological effects on children and teens compared to full-fledged adults ... this sudden social (or at least physical) isolation from everyone except your immediate household is something unique. And the focus on germs, viruses, wash your hands even though they look clean, sanitize that surface just in case, no we can't go anywhere fun or even visit your friends next door because of this invisible threat is likely to be especially confusing or traumatizing to kids who inherently aren't able to fully understand the rationales yet.
I think you may have misunderstood me, but whether you did or not what I was saying was that the totality of harm done by both the pandemic and its economic toll may well approach "Okies in the Depression" level personal and social devastation.

As for the immediate effect on kids, by the time they're sufficiently developed to have a grasp of what's going on in the world, they're already physically separated but socially connected on their phones, tablets, etc. And I don't think kids need to understand the germ theory of disease to be taught to wash their hands more effectively than most of us have been doing. Hell, my mother barely understood the germ theory of disease, she just knew that "Cleanliness is next to Godliness, so go scrub those hands until there's no dirt under your fingernails before dinner" and the only trauma I experienced was the threat of a spanking.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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D.A. Ridgely wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 19:59
Jennifer wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 19:35 Oh, to be sure, where "traumatic, history-making events" are concerned, 2020 Americans living through The Pandemic still have it far easier in many many way than, say, "Europeans in World War Two" or "Okies in the Depression," whether adults or children. But for all the ways the 2020 Pandemic is less unpleasant to live through than multiple things you could mention -- and especially, for all the ways (for example) a young child cowering in an air-raid shelter during the Blitz is experiencing something far more immediately terrifying than a modern American kid cooped up indoors at home all day -- when specifically thinking about the psychological effects on children and teens compared to full-fledged adults ... this sudden social (or at least physical) isolation from everyone except your immediate household is something unique. And the focus on germs, viruses, wash your hands even though they look clean, sanitize that surface just in case, no we can't go anywhere fun or even visit your friends next door because of this invisible threat is likely to be especially confusing or traumatizing to kids who inherently aren't able to fully understand the rationales yet.
I think you may have misunderstood me, but whether you did or not what I was saying was that the totality of harm done by both the pandemic and its economic toll may well approach "Okies in the Depression" level personal and social devastation.

As for the immediate effect on kids, by the time they're sufficiently developed to have a grasp of what's going on in the world, they're already physically separated but socially connected on their phones, tablets, etc. And I don't think kids need to understand the germ theory of disease to be taught to wash their hands more effectively than most of us have been doing. Hell, my mother barely understood the germ theory of disease, she just knew that "Cleanliness is next to Godliness, so go scrub those hands until there's no dirt under your fingernails before dinner" and the only trauma I experienced was the threat of a spanking.
Ah, I did misunderstand your initial post. But, regarding your example of your mom making sure you had no dirt under your fingernails -- I maintain that's quite different from what's going on now. Your mom, like most moms since well before germ theory was discovered, made certain you were visibly clean rather than visibly dirty. But being visibly clean is different from being sterile. The kids today aren't being told to wash off the dirt; they're being warned that their already-clean hands still might make them or someone else very sick. All while living under more-or-less home confinement, too.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Twba wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 19:49 The only cop I have seen in 2 weeks is the one in his usual speed trap location. No one here is being hassled for anything but speeding.
Where did you say you were?
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Jennifer wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 21:08
Ah, I did misunderstand your initial post. But, regarding your example of your mom making sure you had no dirt under your fingernails -- I maintain that's quite different from what's going on now. Your mom, like most moms since well before germ theory was discovered, made certain you were visibly clean rather than visibly dirty. But being visibly clean is different from being sterile. The kids today aren't being told to wash off the dirt; they're being warned that their already-clean hands still might make them or someone else very sick. All while living under more-or-less home confinement, too.
I really don't want to go round after round about this, but fwiw (as I'm sure you already know) no one gets their hands sterile from soap and water, they just hopefully kill enough germs to significantly reduce the likelihood of infection when they invariably touch their mouths, noses, etc. And I think my mother and most parents of her generation had the same general attitude. I was shocked, for example, when I discovered there really are people who believe the "five second rule" about dropped food. My mother knew better, though she had no valid scientific theory why she was correct.

In case you missed it, there's a good article in FiveThirtyEight about hand washing controversies.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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D.A. Ridgely wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 21:24
Jennifer wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 21:08
Ah, I did misunderstand your initial post. But, regarding your example of your mom making sure you had no dirt under your fingernails -- I maintain that's quite different from what's going on now. Your mom, like most moms since well before germ theory was discovered, made certain you were visibly clean rather than visibly dirty. But being visibly clean is different from being sterile. The kids today aren't being told to wash off the dirt; they're being warned that their already-clean hands still might make them or someone else very sick. All while living under more-or-less home confinement, too.
I really don't want to go round after round about this, but fwiw (as I'm sure you already know) no one gets their hands sterile from soap and water, they just hopefully kill enough germs to significantly reduce the likelihood of infection when they invariably touch their mouths, noses, etc. And I think my mother and most parents of her generation had the same general attitude. I was shocked, for example, when I discovered there really are people who believe the "five second rule" about dropped food. My mother knew better, though she had no valid scientific theory why she was correct.

In case you missed it, there's a good article in FiveThirtyEight about hand washing controversies.
I'm not trying to go round and round on this either; I'm trying to make the point that what Kids Today are going through is in many ways completely unique from what any generation has faced before, both from the physical/home isolation standpoint AND regarding the specific thing they're being told to fear, and the specific strategies being taught to protect themselves. I was not trying to start an argument or spread misinformation about germophobia, OCD and/or those who suffer from them, for fuck's sake.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Twba wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 12:22 I thought during the apocalypse I would be counting ammo rounds instead of toilet paper rolls.
Slo-mo apocalypse. Right now we've only dropped to 1980s Soviet era collapse of civilization.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Jennifer wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 18:31
Shem wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 14:54
Jennifer wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 14:32 When the current crop of minor children comes of age, their generation will have far higher rates of OCD/germophobic tendencies than any of their parents or grandparents did.
That's not how OCD works.
As I understand it, the actual cause is not known (the Mayo Clinic lists the three main theories as biology, genetics and learning, and "stressful life events" as one of three possible risk factors); if learned behavior and/or stressful events are indeed responsible sometimes, I can definitely foresee future problems for certain kids now in their formative years: life was normal until suddenly everything changed, they're basically living under house arrest, many of them in families now facing financial and other forms of stress, and all the while they keep hearing how you've got to wash your hands and sanitize everything because there's these invisible, inaudible little threats that might make you sick or might even kill you, or you'll be fine but you'll kill Nana if she gets it from you ... and I mean no insult or disrespect toward any sufferer of any mental illness when I say: I think a lot of these kids are going to develop problems when they get older, compared to previous generations.

That said, if there are reasons to be more optimistic -- "the kids'll be fine, this won't affect them much" -- or reasons to be pessimistic in a different way -- "the kids'll have problems, but unrelated to germophobia or OCD" -- I would genuinely be interested in hearing them.
I have OCD. I'm really not interested in finding out how it works from a Mayo Clinic web page, considering I've spent the past 20 years getting guided through a firsthand education on it by over a dozen mental health care providers while I try to get my shit together and become able to operate in society without compulsions making me look like an even bigger freak, or obsessions making me feel like a monster. It has nothing whatsoever to do with germs, and everything to do with a little part of your brain that never kicks in to say "that's it, that's enough, you obviously completed that task and can be satisfied that it's done," or another part of your brain that keeps whispering shit like "what if you pushed that guy in front of the bus that's coming. I KNOW you don't WANT to, and have no intention of doing it...but what if you do it?" Being taught to be anal retentive about hand washing might make someone neurotic, possibly incredibly neurotic, but it is not going to make someone OCD. It just isn't.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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Warren wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 21:16
Twba wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 19:49 The only cop I have seen in 2 weeks is the one in his usual speed trap location. No one here is being hassled for anything but speeding.
Where did you say you were?
Ohio. You may have seen the Republican governor on the news being praised for shutting down the restaurants and bars so quickly. Yeah, great idea putting all those young and healthy fuckers out of work. All he really needed to do is tell the oldsters to stay the fuck home, because everyone else is fucking walking all over the fucking place spreading their germs while the economy crashes and burns. This is the biggest shit show I have ever witnessed. Happy birthday, by the way.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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I know nothing about OCD, but I think about pushing people in front of buses all the time. In fact, I'm imagining doing it to someone this very moment.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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D.A. Ridgely wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 22:01 I know nothing about OCD, but I think about pushing people in front of buses all the time. In fact, I'm imagining doing it to someone this very moment.
It doesn't count if you're championing the cause of justice.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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D.A. Ridgely wrote: 01 Apr 2020, 22:01 I know nothing about OCD, but I think about pushing people in front of buses all the time. In fact, I'm imagining doing it to someone this very moment.
Fortunately I'm only near a universal serial bus. And at least 6' from you in keeping with social distancing guidelines and the geographical separation of Texas and Colorado.
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Re: Random covid-19 observations

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For mrs lunch OCD manifests as I have to repeat this behavior or someone may die horribly by some extremely unlikely mutilation, possibly her, possibly someone else, possibly intentionally inflicted by her, or possibly just an accident. Like she pulls out of the driveway, and as she turns from our street she thinks hey wait was that bump just going from the driveway to the street, or did I run over someone, I'd better go back to check, no okay but now I need to go check if I hit someone when I went to check no wait if I don't do it a prime number of times I might go insane and run someone over and then get out and finish them off with the lug wrench from the spare tire kit.
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