Orange is the new President

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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by Jennifer »

How does the military chain of command work specifically in regard to doctors? All of them are officers -- there are no enlisted physicians in the military -- but if Colonel Physician says General Injuredguy needs to be confined to bed rest for awhile, can the general overrule him in that instance? What about an extremely sick and contagious C-I-C?
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Re: Orange is the new President

Post by lunchstealer »

OK y'know how I said I don't wish harm or suffering on DJT the reality tv star?

Yeah, sorry, dunno what came over me but I'm better now.

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Re: Orange is the new President

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Jennifer wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 15:04 How does the military chain of command work specifically in regard to doctors? All of them are officers -- there are no enlisted physicians in the military -- but if Colonel Physician says General Injuredguy needs to be confined to bed rest for awhile, can the general overrule him in that instance? What about an extremely sick and contagious C-I-C?
If he can command the Secret Service to let him hold an indoor event during a pandemic (forget the outdoor photos, scroll down in this NYT article), with no masks and no distancing, there's pretty much nobody who can stand up to him. They are legally obligated to keep him safe, even to the point of telling him to his face he shouldn't do something. And yet if he pushes hard enough he can get what he wants, even to the point of infecting himself and presumably his security detail.

Rules and procedures matter. A lot. But as much as we want to trust systems more than individuals, any system can be undermined if individuals in critical positions are determined to fuck up and other individuals (e.g. the Senate during an impeachment trial) refuse to stop him. There's no flowchart that will save you from a mad emperor. Either the plebeians vote him out, the Senate pushes him out, the praetorians dispose of him, or the barbarians burn the place down. There's no "Ah, but sir, see, according to these rules..." when the emperor has syphilis and it's gone to the brain. You either remove him by the rules, remove him against the rules, or ride this madness out to inevitable ruin.

We're way past "But wait, technically they're supposed to..."
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Re: Orange is the new President

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lunchstealer wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 15:08 OK y'know how I said I don't wish harm or suffering on DJT the reality tv star?

Yeah, sorry, dunno what came over me but I'm better now.


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What are the odds he's back in Walter Reed in a week?
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Re: Orange is the new President

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That would be chaotic and hilarious.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

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When I was a kid I had a book of US presidential trivia facts -- one published so long ago, it still talked about the alleged "curse" that no president elected in a year ending in zero completed his term, before Reagan broke the trend -- but I do recall it said something to the effect of "If the Secret Service orders a U.S. president to NOT go to a certain place, the president has to obey them."
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Jennifer wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 15:32 When I was a kid I had a book of US presidential trivia facts -- one published so long ago, it still talked about the alleged "curse" that no president elected in a year ending in zero completed his term, before Reagan broke the trend -- but I do recall it said something to the effect of "If the Secret Service orders a U.S. president to NOT go to a certain place, the president has to obey them."
Did the book mention what the consequences were for a president who disobeys a Secret Service order?
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Hugh Akston wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 15:36
Jennifer wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 15:32 When I was a kid I had a book of US presidential trivia facts -- one published so long ago, it still talked about the alleged "curse" that no president elected in a year ending in zero completed his term, before Reagan broke the trend -- but I do recall it said something to the effect of "If the Secret Service orders a U.S. president to NOT go to a certain place, the president has to obey them."
Did the book mention what the consequences were for a president who disobeys a Secret Service order?
Obviously not. But the SS does have some power relative to Trump here; I have no idea why they're not using it.

ETA: Unless, perhaps, the specific rule is "They can order him not to go someplace where HIS safety is at risk." Whoever wrote the rules never considered a president psychopathic enough to deliberately endanger the SS agents' lives for worthless shit like a photo op.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Look, it may be that the rules manual says a Secret Service agent won't get in trouble for saying "Sorry, sir, but I can't let you go into the room with that person who isn't wearing a mask." That just means that if the shit rains down, when all of the processes are concluded the paperwork transferring the agent to some other duty won't have "Refused to let POTUS get sick" stamped on it. The paperwork will say something else. Because the syphilitic emperor can always fire someone, if not the guy six layers down and protected by civil service rules or whatever then some political appointee. And the new political appointee will find a way to transfer someone to a new job if they say "Sorry, sir, but I can't let you do that" to the mad emperor.

So eventually everyone stops saying "Sorry, sir, I can't let you do that" no matter how insane he is, because they know that all of the rules and paperwork in the world won't stop the mad emperor from sacking political appointees until he finds someone willing to find a pretext to reshuffle the guys at ground level.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

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thoreau wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 15:47 Look, it may be that the rules manual says a Secret Service agent won't get in trouble for saying "Sorry, sir, but I can't let you go into the room with that person who isn't wearing a mask." That just means that if the shit rains down, when all of the processes are concluded the paperwork transferring the agent to some other duty won't have "Refused to let POTUS get sick" stamped on it. The paperwork will say something else. Because the syphilitic emperor can always fire someone, if not the guy six layers down and protected by civil service rules or whatever then some political appointee. And the new political appointee will find a way to transfer someone to a new job if they say "Sorry, sir, but I can't let you do that" to the mad emperor.

So eventually everyone stops saying "Sorry, sir, I can't let you do that" no matter how insane he is, because they know that all of the rules and paperwork in the world won't stop the mad emperor from sacking political appointees until he finds someone willing to find a pretext to reshuffle the guys at ground level.
During the early years of the Trump administration, perhaps. But this far into it, where deranged Trump cultists are literally the only ones who still pretend Trump is a normal [let alone good] POTUS -- a career SS guy who stands his ground and ends up being transferred to whatever is the SS equivalent of a Navy guy assigned to guard the coastal batteries of Kansas should know this will only be temporary, and in the not-very-long term he'll be vindicated.

Or, for a less sympathetic take: if you're brave enough to take a bullet for the president if necessary, you should also be brave enough to be the adult in the room if necessary.
Last edited by Jennifer on 05 Oct 2020, 16:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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nicole wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 12:29 Yes, and deranged researchers will have no problem writing a bunch of conspiracy theories about those blank pieces of paper.
They won't be blank. Some enterprising forger is going to use one of them to fabricate papers selling his great-great grandpappy the Louisiana Purchase in exchange for consideration on a reality TV show, and this era is going to be remembered as being so batshit that nobody is going to be able to immediately know for sure it's a fake.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Re: Orange is the new President

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What's the refund policy?
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Jennifer wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 16:18But this far into it, where deranged Trump cultists are literally the only ones who still pretend Trump is a normal [let alone good] POTUS -- a career SS guy who stands his ground and ends up being transferred to whatever is the SS equivalent of a Navy guy assigned to guard the coastal batteries of Kansas should know this will only be temporary, and in the not-very-long term he'll be vindicated.

Or, for a less sympathetic take: if you're brave enough to take a bullet for the president if necessary, you should also be brave enough to be the adult in the room if necessary.
First, this far into it, it isn't clear that the ranks of political appointees include anyone other than deranged Trump cultists.

Second, while the odds are in favor of Biden, Trump still has a real chance, and a career man has to factor that into his decision. And even if Biden wins, low men on totem poles don't get automatically forgiven for arguing with a previous boss as soon as a new boss comes in. That's not how real organizations work. A low man on a totem pole has a few layers of bosses who will last between administrations. Some of them might respect that principled stand to protect the President and other agents, but a lot of bureaucratic lifers will be like "You're the prick who started arguing with the old boss rather than just going along to get along." And Biden is the quintessential Washington lifer. It's not like lifer middle-managers who went along to get along will be punished for not defending low-ranking troublemakers when Biden comes in.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

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thoreau wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 18:12
Jennifer wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 16:18But this far into it, where deranged Trump cultists are literally the only ones who still pretend Trump is a normal [let alone good] POTUS -- a career SS guy who stands his ground and ends up being transferred to whatever is the SS equivalent of a Navy guy assigned to guard the coastal batteries of Kansas should know this will only be temporary, and in the not-very-long term he'll be vindicated.

Or, for a less sympathetic take: if you're brave enough to take a bullet for the president if necessary, you should also be brave enough to be the adult in the room if necessary.
First, this far into it, it isn't clear that the ranks of political appointees include anyone other than deranged Trump cultists.

Second, while the odds are in favor of Biden, Trump still has a real chance, and a career man has to factor that into his decision. And even if Biden wins, low men on totem poles don't get automatically forgiven for arguing with a previous boss as soon as a new boss comes in. That's not how real organizations work. A low man on a totem pole has a few layers of bosses who will last between administrations. Some of them might respect that principled stand to protect the President and other agents, but a lot of bureaucratic lifers will be like "You're the prick who started arguing with the old boss rather than just going along to get along." And Biden is the quintessential Washington lifer. It's not like lifer middle-managers who went along to get along will be punished for not defending low-ranking troublemakers when Biden comes in.
Again, for a less sympathetic take: if you're brave enough to take a bullet for the president, you should be brave enough to take a career dip for the country.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I agree that they should. OTOH, if a leader wants his guardians to be better than mere civil service lifers then he has to keep up his end of the bargain. Otherwise they will rationally trade valiant idealism for bureaucratic lifer status. And maybe at some point they figure "Fuck it, this guy won't protect us from infection, why should I act insubordinate to protect him?" They could never verbalize it in quite that way, and they'd probably still take the bullet for him, because taking the bullet is in the job description and everyone will laud them for it. But insubordination could earn disapproval even from a lot of devoted people. Because their whole job is based on hierarchy as much as it's based on guarding people.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Jennifer wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 18:34 Again, for a less sympathetic take: if you're brave enough to take a bullet for the president, you should be brave enough to take a career dip for the country.
A lot of people would rather die than face social disapproval.
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Jennifer
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Aresen wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 19:04
Jennifer wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 18:34 Again, for a less sympathetic take: if you're brave enough to take a bullet for the president, you should be brave enough to take a career dip for the country.
A lot of people would rather die than face social disapproval.
True, but it also depends on just whom they're facing that disapproval from.

Where Trump is concerned -- specifically, for people holding such prestige positions as "military physician assigned to the White House" or "Secret Service agent assigned to presidential detail" (as opposed to, like, members of the White House cleaning staff) -- at this point, I'd say, putting your foot down against Trump specifically in regard to covid-19 is NOT a case where it's likely to be "Well, history will vindicate me, but not soon enough to matter for me and my family." Not with Trump's credibility edifice, and likely his physical health too, practically collapsing in realtime.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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I still gleefully hope he croaks, but the video of him "gasping" on the balcony did make me feel bad for him. When I had fluid on my lungs after my second c-section and ended up in the hospital on oxygen, it was just awful. I still remember trying to go across the hall to the bathroom when I was in the ER before starting the oxygen, and it was torture trying to move and get enough air. (And I know lots of other people are experiencing that because of his actions. It was just an awful enough memory I still felt bad for a little bit.)
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Jennifer wrote: 05 Oct 2020, 15:04 How does the military chain of command work specifically in regard to doctors? All of them are officers -- there are no enlisted physicians in the military -- but if Colonel Physician says General Injuredguy needs to be confined to bed rest for awhile, can the general overrule him in that instance? What about an extremely sick and contagious C-I-C?
As a overall rule, ‘staff’ officers cannot overrule the directives of ‘line’ (I.e operational) officers. As a more hard and fast rule, medical officers of a lower rank cannot ‘order’ a higher ranking officer to do anything. But there is also a gigantic MedMan (medical manual) with rules that govern how military folks can or cannot keep their jobs if they have certain medical conditions.

The only place I can think of where the ethics of this is usually tested is that O-5/O-6 aviator that is running his or her on a race against Father Time to stay in the medical qualification standards for flight status.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Re: Orange is the new President

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The decapitation of the American Government continues:

Senior Pentagon leadership quarantining after exposure to coronavirus
(CNN)The top US general, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley, and several members of the Pentagon's senior leadership are quarantining after a top Coast Guard official tested positive for coronavirus, several US defense officials tell CNN.

The Pentagon is "conducting additional contact tracing and taking appropriate precautions to protect the force and the mission," after vice commandant of the US Coast Guard, Adm. Charles Ray, tested positive on Monday, according to Jonathan Hoffman, assistant to the secretary of defense for public affairs.
Despite efforts by the Pentagon to stress that military leaders can carry on business as usual from quarantine, the prospect of the virus spreading among senior officials who work in one of the world's largest office buildings will likely raise major national security questions, particularly as it follows a major outbreak in the White House that hospitalized President Donald Trump and after three Republican senators tested positive in recent days.
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Re: Orange is the new President

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Steven Miller got the Kung flu.

Just an hour ago I was talking with the nice old quaker ladies in the sangha I do (zoom) sits with that this weekend had been a hard one for compassion and I was surprised at the amount of giggling.

All beings suffer. But some of them deserve it...
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Re: Orange is the new President

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dhex wrote: 06 Oct 2020, 19:41 Steven Miller got the Kung flu.
So it's jumped species again!
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Re: Orange is the new President

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D.A. Ridgely wrote: 06 Oct 2020, 19:58
dhex wrote: 06 Oct 2020, 19:41 Steven Miller got the Kung flu.
So it's jumped species again!
This is why I love you, Ridgely.
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