I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Jadagul
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Jadagul »

Warren wrote:Unless you're blind or wanted by the law, I can't think of any acceptable reason to not have a drivers license.
From what I recall, Taktix has a pretty good excuse.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Fin Fang Foom »

Warren wrote:Unless you're blind or wanted by the law, I can't think of any acceptable reason to not have a drivers license.
Tsk. tsk. Oh Warren.

As I understand it, loads of people are "overbiked," i.e., they have bicycles appropriate for semi-serious touring or racing when they just need a cheap-o steel bike.
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Ayn_Randian
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Ayn_Randian »

The more I think about it, the less appropriate I find street biking. Street bikers really are more rightfully thought of as running pedestrians than vehicle operators. Just a random thought.
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Jadagul
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Jadagul »

Ayn_Randian wrote:The more I think about it, the less appropriate I find street biking. Street bikers really are more rightfully thought of as running pedestrians than vehicle operators. Just a random thought.
Isn't this the case for separated bike lanes? Cyclists don't really fit into the same category as drivers, and they also don't really fit into the same category as pedestrians. (I never see pedestrians running at 15 mph and I never see bikes hit 25, contrary to some claims upthread).
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Kolohe »

Jadagul wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:The more I think about it, the less appropriate I find street biking. Street bikers really are more rightfully thought of as running pedestrians than vehicle operators. Just a random thought.
Isn't this the case for separated bike lanes? Cyclists don't really fit into the same category as drivers, and they also don't really fit into the same category as pedestrians. (I never see pedestrians running at 15 mph and I never see bikes hit 25, contrary to some claims upthread).
Does 24.7 mph count?
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Number 6
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Jadagul wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:The more I think about it, the less appropriate I find street biking. Street bikers really are more rightfully thought of as running pedestrians than vehicle operators. Just a random thought.
(I never see pedestrians running at 15 mph and I never see bikes hit 25, contrary to some claims upthread).
??? Any road bike, even my old steel-framed one, can hit 25 or better on a flat surface.
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Jadagul
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Number 6 wrote:
Jadagul wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:The more I think about it, the less appropriate I find street biking. Street bikers really are more rightfully thought of as running pedestrians than vehicle operators. Just a random thought.
(I never see pedestrians running at 15 mph and I never see bikes hit 25, contrary to some claims upthread).
??? Any road bike, even my old steel-framed one, can hit 25 or better on a flat surface.
I didn't say they can't. I said that I never see it, living in an area with a reasonable-but-not-vast amount of commuter biking. (I suspect it makes a difference that everyone has to stop every quarter-mile or so).
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Highway »

Bicyclists are better thought of as... bicyclists. Don't try to classify them as something else. The better people understand the advantages and limitations to cycling, the better they can deal with it.

And I will vehemently disagree with physically separated bike lanes, because they would be a huge waste of pavement and pollution with nearly zero traffic. I already struggle with the very concept of widespread sidewalks, especially the highly redundant ones that the Complete Streets folks always want (walk on one side, H/B trail on the other, bike lanes on both sides most of the time).

Street biking is perfectly appropriate. It's not the point of the roadway that no driver should ever have to account for someone else while driving around. It's not like you encounter all sorts of cyclists that are a constant problem. Although that in itself is part of the problem: encounters with cyclists are not frequent enough that drivers always know what they should do around them, and there aren't enough cyclists who use the same road manners to allow drivers to be consistent around them.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Eric the .5b »

Highway wrote:Street biking is perfectly appropriate. It's not the point of the roadway that no driver should ever have to account for someone else while driving around. It's not like you encounter all sorts of cyclists that are a constant problem. Although that in itself is part of the problem: encounters with cyclists are not frequent enough that drivers always know what they should do around them, and there aren't enough cyclists who use the same road manners to allow drivers to be consistent around them.
I think that's an equally good - or better argument - against bikes being appropriate for streets in the US. Drivers aren't even trained to interact properly with cyclists, much less have any experience in doing so. For their part, cyclists don't even agree on how they should behave - I've encountered passionate debates about which side of the road they should drive on, and whether they should hug the edge of their lane or stay right in the middle.

This is something parts of Europe really appear to do better because their cyclists behave consistently and they and drivers know how to interact with each other. In big chunks of Europe, I'd make a run to the grocery store in my sturdy, sensible street bike, while wearing my street clothes, and with a big fuck-off carrying-bin on the front of my bike. I wouldn't be worried about being roadkill while crossing the Loop.

I'd really like to know how to get there, though I doubt our cycling and driving cultures would allow it.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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That's not an argument against disallowing street biking. That's like saying "If you don't know how to do something, you shouldn't ever be allowed to do it." And bikes + pedestrians on most sidewalks just don't mix. That's why H/B trails are significantly wider. And we get there by people learning.
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Jadagul
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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I mostly agree with Highway. My original point to A_R is that sure, bikes aren't cars, but they aren't pedestrians either--which Highway also stated. If you go with the theory that only cars should be on streets and only pedestrians should be on sidewalks, then you need a third lane for bikes. I don't think that theory is quite right. But bikes are different from pedestrians and from cars, and incorporating biking into every-day transit life requires infrastructure that takes biking into account, and also commuting norms that take biking into account. Much of Europe has this and we don't, but I'd like to see at least some areas of the country try to figure it out.

(Simple example: back in the early history of this thread, I complained about how my bike commute hits a few intersections where the lights only change if the street senses a car or if someone hits the walk sign button. So cars can cross, and pedestrians can cross, but it's not set up in a way that bikes can behave reasonably).
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Bicyclists are much closer to pedestrians if you put it on a spectrum. It's fine to say some bicyclists occasionally go 25mph, but most do 10, 15 tops most of the time. On a scale, that's like saying drag racing should be legal because sometimes people go 90 and run red lights. Building infrastructure around extremes is silly.

Highway, why not just let pedestrians walk in the road?
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Eric the .5b
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Eric the .5b »

Highway wrote:That's not an argument against disallowing street biking. That's like saying "If you don't know how to do something, you shouldn't ever be allowed to do it." And bikes + pedestrians on most sidewalks just don't mix. That's why H/B trails are significantly wider. And we get there by people learning.
We've had bikes on streets for decades, and people aren't demonstrably learning. The fact that we have a bike subculture in this country instead of the European attitude of, "I'm just a regular person riding a bike, because that's what regular people do..." is probably part of that
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Ayn_Randian wrote:Bicyclists are much closer to pedestrians if you put it on a spectrum. It's fine to say some bicyclists occasionally go 25mph, but most do 10, 15 tops most of the time. On a scale, that's like saying drag racing should be legal because sometimes people go 90 and run red lights. Building infrastructure around extremes is silly.

Highway, why not just let pedestrians walk in the road?
Pedestrians are allowed to walk in the road.

The speed and control differential between cyclists and cars is actually less than the speed and control differential between cyclists and pedestrians. The fact that bicycles are vehicles is an important distinction. And let's be clear: bikes have been using public roads for over a century, and it generally isn't a problem. This isn't some new problem that needs to be worked out. It's not like nobody's ever thought about these issues before. And I'm not saying that just because that's the way it's been done that we need to keep doing it that way. But also, the proliferation of bike facilities is happening, because people want it to. I think there are some places that are more appropriate than others, but also wish that they had more usage if we're going to build them.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Eric the .5b wrote:
Highway wrote:That's not an argument against disallowing street biking. That's like saying "If you don't know how to do something, you shouldn't ever be allowed to do it." And bikes + pedestrians on most sidewalks just don't mix. That's why H/B trails are significantly wider. And we get there by people learning.
We've had bikes on streets for decades, and people aren't demonstrably learning. The fact that we have a bike subculture in this country instead of the European attitude of, "I'm just a regular person riding a bike, because that's what regular people do..." is probably part of that
I don't think there's really so much of a 'problem'. If it's complaining about a 'subculture' on the internet, well, that's what people on the internet do. You're surprised? I'm sure there are plenty of people who are just out there to ride, and not be part of a subculture.

But a lot of the reason that biking doesn't do as well in the US gets back to development patterns. And those aren't really going to change for places that are already developed.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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You say it's not a problem and yet it's a problem to everyone ( literally) I talk to. Do you think maybe your lack of regular commuting is causing you to think, "it's not a problem to me, ergo it's not a problem to everyone else."

Saying "we've shared the roads for centuries" ignores entirely how much the driving dynamic has changed.

Finally it may be true that the differential is more. The consequences aren't. A collision b/ t a pedestrian and a biker is rarely fatal. Otoh, a collision between a car and a bike routinely ends in serious injury to death.

The differential between 3 mph and 25 mpg is a factor of 8. The differential between 50 mph and 300 mph is just a factor of six. Guess which one I'll take?
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Yeah, it's a 'problem' to everyone you talk to because drivers are saying, to say it bluntly: 'Wah, I don't want these bikes in my way." What do bikes do that are so so bad that makes it such a huge problem? Are people swerving? Are they being erratic? There are bad behaviors from bikes, and bad behaviors from drivers, but they're not the majority of either one. Just because I don't drive a lot on freeways doesn't mean I don't encounter bicycles.

How has 'the driving dynamic changed'? The things that have changed is that there are more roads that are friendly to bikes, there are more shoulders, there *should* be more awareness. If there isn't, it's because people are being dicks. It's not hard to deal with a bicyclist: Don't hit them. If that means someone has to slow down, then do that. Don't get all pissed off. If an encounter with a bicyclist delays a driver by all of 30 seconds for their trip, that's a total rarity. More often, it's "OMG, I have to slow down for this bicycle... RAAAAAAAAGE!!!!"

It wouldn't be doing bicyclists a service to force them off roads. It would just be pandering to car drivers who don't want to have to deal with something they don't like. Car drivers need to get over it if it's so awful, because it really isn't.
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I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Ayn_Randian »

Highway, you're in "let them eat cake" territory here. Has anyone ever stopped short immediately in front of you in the grocery. That sort of jarring behavior is more than an annoyance; it's legitimately distressing, not to mention that my failure to go from 35 to 10 in mere seconds means I may kill someone. Sure, I see the cyclist and slow down, but do the three cars behind me? I sure hope so. Oh and when traffic is parked on both sides of a narrow street, you're going 10 until you can "pass", which in theory you're not even allowed to do, because that's a "vehicle".

It's like when someone is standing still on a moving sidewalk and their bag is blocking you from going around. That situation is literally every day for me and for most people I talk to.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Ayn_Randian wrote:Highway, you're in "let them eat cake" territory here. Has anyone ever stopped short immediately in front of you in the grocery. That sort of jarring behavior is more than an annoyance; it's legitimately distressing, not to mention that my failure to go from 35 to 10 in mere seconds means I may kill someone. Sure, I see the cyclist and slow down, but do the three cars behind me? I sure hope so. Oh and when traffic is parked on both sides of a narrow street, you're going 10 until you can "pass", which in theory you're not even allowed to do, because that's a "vehicle".

It's like when someone is standing still on a moving sidewalk and their bag is blocking you from going around. That situation is literally every day for me and for most people I talk to.
If the three cars behind you can't slow down in time, the problem is not the cyclist.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Warren »

Team Randian. Bicycles are sporting equipment they don't belong on the roads.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Ayn_Randian »

lunchstealer wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:Highway, you're in "let them eat cake" territory here. Has anyone ever stopped short immediately in front of you in the grocery. That sort of jarring behavior is more than an annoyance; it's legitimately distressing, not to mention that my failure to go from 35 to 10 in mere seconds means I may kill someone. Sure, I see the cyclist and slow down, but do the three cars behind me? I sure hope so. Oh and when traffic is parked on both sides of a narrow street, you're going 10 until you can "pass", which in theory you're not even allowed to do, because that's a "vehicle".

It's like when someone is standing still on a moving sidewalk and their bag is blocking you from going around. That situation is literally every day for me and for most people I talk to.
If the three cars behind you can't slow down in time, the problem is not the cyclist.
True, but that doesn't make me any less rear ended.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

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Ayn_Randian wrote:
lunchstealer wrote:
Ayn_Randian wrote:Highway, you're in "let them eat cake" territory here. Has anyone ever stopped short immediately in front of you in the grocery. That sort of jarring behavior is more than an annoyance; it's legitimately distressing, not to mention that my failure to go from 35 to 10 in mere seconds means I may kill someone. Sure, I see the cyclist and slow down, but do the three cars behind me? I sure hope so. Oh and when traffic is parked on both sides of a narrow street, you're going 10 until you can "pass", which in theory you're not even allowed to do, because that's a "vehicle".

It's like when someone is standing still on a moving sidewalk and their bag is blocking you from going around. That situation is literally every day for me and for most people I talk to.
If the three cars behind you can't slow down in time, the problem is not the cyclist.
True, but that doesn't make me any less rear ended.
But if you get rear-ended because of a slowdown, it seems like you should be worried about getting shitty drivers off the road, not bicycles, because lots of things cause sudden slowdowns besides bikes.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Ayn_Randian »

But bikes are the ones that routinely and reliably cause slowdowns. It's in their nature to do so.
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by Aresen »

My grievance with cyclists on the road is not that they want the same rights as motor vehicles. It is that they want it both ways. I have sat behind a bicycle at an intersection where the guy on the cycle is sitting in the middle of the lane, preventing me from making a right turn. But I have yet to see a cyclist coming up behind a car who does not move into the space between the car and the curb in order to get up to the intersection at the front of the line. (I am referring to cases where there is no "bike lane".
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Re: I want to ride my bicycle! I want to ride my bike!

Post by lunchstealer »

Ayn_Randian wrote:But bikes are the ones that routinely and reliably cause slowdowns. It's in their nature to do so.
And that's a problem if there are people driving who aren't competent to operate a vehicle as dangerous as a car. Maybe they should be relegated to bicycles and buses.
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